I'm not going to say much about what's been going on lately other than it makes me, and others I've spoken to, incredibly sad. The main reason for the existence of this site has been to create a community and I feel like up until very recently we had a damn fine one. Everyone was nice, everyone cared about the lake and things were super positive.
It seems something has changed this fall and we now have a fractured and divided community. It's petty, stupid and childish. Honestly, it makes me want to climb with only my closest friends, just to stay out of it all.
I've worked very hard over the years to build up a community like the one we've had in the past and to see it go this way is frustrating, to say the least. At this point I'd love to see everyone leave their personal differences out of it and grow the hell up. I think we'd all like to see that.
Hello world!
8 months ago
Posts
Amen brother Schultz. Peace. ce
ReplyDeleteOh sweetie, it's gonna be alright. I will give you a hug next time I'm up there. I love everyone but the brown kid, and he doesnt even live here anymore so we are good on that. I even like Rhoads from time to time. Here's the deal:
ReplyDeleteIan is a really nice guy, a strong climber, and an overall cool dude. He just needs to start putting things in comments instead of saying they are different problems all together. When lots of the same holds are used on problems then you have done a variation, no matter how cool it may be. As he mentions in his description of Hammer Club he felt like this is the path of least resistance up the Alpine Club face. That means that he found better beta for Alpine Club and it is a v7-8 for him. He is doing a lot of exploring and trying to help further develop an area which I envy and thank him for doing (along with everyone else that is doing so). I think it would suit him he keep a thicker skin. When you are putting yourself out there with new problems, ratings, stars etc. You are opening yourself to criticism, especially in our day and age of the internet. Not everyone is going to say things nicely. Dobbe amongst others on MP have a history of being pretty blunt. This is fine but you have to be able to take that blunt feedback, whatever it is, and deal. Also, Rhoads is a shit stirrer :-) But if Ian or anybody else was more liberal with leaving variations in the comments and conservative with posting new problems I think this particular issue will go away.
nice post! i really have to agree with u steve! before i moved to CO i knew a big chunk of the climbers here everyone was awesome it was a special thing to be a Wi climber we had a great community..i show back up a year later and shit has hit the fan..people who ive climbed with before just straight talking shit and etc..it has been a really lame year. ive just been hiding from everyone bringing this younging from gym up ive been mentoring just trying to stay sane..he is a MP whore cuz he is soo pysched to find new lines as the outdoor climbing is new to him but its sad he knows all the drama so when me and other friends talk about the lake he chimes in with comments on who is and who isnt lame in the area its damn funny considering he hasnt met a soul up there climbing! all in all it should blow over and simmer down. ive left mountainproject cause i know i was an ass sometimes and that was lame on my behalf and i just have no use for the bullshit anymore. we have to not forgot other people use MP and prolly thing we are a bunch of dbags. crazy season, crazy sends, all in one crazy state. viva la wisconsin!
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, nobody who commented on the Hammer Club thread was intending to be malicious. Sweaty's points are very astute in that a thick skin is needed. Most professions have processes of peer review and revision. This process isn't meant to dwarf accomplishments or belittle, it's meant as a constructive criticism process. I hate to speak for others, but peer review is exactly what Rhoads, Dobbe and I were intending. So let's get the facts straight; we weren't downplaying how strong or psyched Ian is, we were asking "what constitutes a new problem?" and simultaneously responding "not this" - what we believe to be a reasonable answer. If anybody disagrees, fine. But this was never an attempt to go Godzilla on the Madison climbing community.
ReplyDeleteIt's hard to argue that posting these problems is better than leaving them as comments. From the database perspective, posting as separate problems makes for clutter and confusion on a website that has the goal of eschewing obfuscation (if you will). On the climbing end, putting up a "new" problem that is simply the old problem with different beta is somewhat disingenuous to the person who put up the original, uncontrived problem.
The main point of every post in that thread is to point out that subtle variations hardly constitute new problems. By categorizing such comments as dramatic, you take away their intended meaning.
Paully
If this is a competition to see who can type the longest reply, I lose. Hard to be verbose on the iPhone. ce
ReplyDeleteI had something else written but deleted it. I'm gonna go eat and drink with Nic. We're gonna talk shit about all of you, except Katie, and it's gonna be great.
ReplyDeleteCE - I have an iPhone too now. Suck it old man.
you can talk shit about me too if you want. I am gonna go buy a puppy. and a fainting goat. -ks
ReplyDeleteNo fainting goats!!! Also, Nic is making me dinner. And said he will mail you a purple sticker if he doesn't have one! He really wants you to like him!
ReplyDeletehttp://madison.craigslist.org/pet/2653096150.html
ReplyDeletethis one.
HIJACK!!!! no more stupid climbing arguing.
ReplyDeletethis one too.
http://madison.craigslist.org/pet/2699216570.html
Too good. Steve, I'm a shit stirrer and I enjoy provoking discussion. Most of the discussion is shit but there's always a key comment or two (which may not even pertain to the original post) that progresses thought. I think there's only a few people who actually take the whole thing seriously and well, they need to get over it.
ReplyDeleteIan can post whatever he wants just as I can post whatever I want. I'm open to any criticism anyone has to give me and everyone else should be too. I remember I once quit MP and asked Knower to take down everything I posted. Later, I realized who really gives a fuck what some prick says about me or my posts on the internet. To Ian's credit he has stayed above the fray.
You don't mention the topic directly in your post so I can only assume this is more about the "community" than the Alpine Club boulder. The community is alive and well but there will always be conflict, personal, petty and the like.
What fascinates me so much is the way people interact. The good and the bad. Why is there anger and hate along with love and compassion? Because that's life and it's o' so darn interesting.
Did I win for longest post?
BTW, I love you all and I'm not even joking about that. Keep up the good shit.
ReplyDeleteI've been a climber in Madison for 4 years now. From my point of view, it has always been fractured, with the only difference being that instead of one clique being fractured from the rest of the community, that clique itself is becoming fractured. Honestly, the "Madison climbing community" (aka you climb >V6, hang out at Boulder's, and read this blog) has never been receptive to outsiders, a fact well-known outside of this clique. In fact, you personally have been extraordinarily cold/rude toward me (any everyone else I climb with) in every interaction.
ReplyDeleteThe nostalgic "kumbaya" attitude of this post is recalling a time that only existed for those inside of the clique. It's been this way for years.
Anonymous, can I ask who you are? I apologize in advance that I've been "cold/rude" to you.
ReplyDeleteWhen I refer to the community that we've worked to create, I'm referring to the people that have put in hundreds of hours exploring, cleaning, fixing landings and in general, re-creating the Devil's Lake bouldering scene that had been non existent.
As a someone who has been climbing in Madison for 12 years now I can safely say that the past few years have been some of the best.
As far as the "clique" talk goes, I can understand what you mean. That said, I have a group of friends that I like to be around. Those are some of the same people that I enjoy climbing with. If saying that I only climb with close friends is equal to us being a clique, then yes. You're correct. We're a clique.
Anonymous I disagree, I am not strong but I do try hard and on occasion succeed. I have been here four and a half years and felt pretty welcomed when I first started climbing here. Regardless I hope I have not been cold. A few of are headed out bouldering Friday morning if it works out. Post up back here or contact me through mp if you want to come. Not sure yet what specific plans are. ce
ReplyDeleteAhhh! So work hours are required to join the community! Yes, I haven't put many of those in, outside of constantly brushing off others' massive tick marks or picking up litter.
ReplyDeleteAlso, thank you for the apology. You wouldn't know who I am if I told you my name, and I can't say I know you except for matching a face on this website with someone I've seen around. I don't think you're a bad person, but rather my experiences have not been positive. CE, I don't know you, but I appreciate the gesture. I too have felt welcomed as a climber in Madison, but with a different part of it. If any of you attended Reel Rock last week, I'm sure you realize there are A LOT of climbers in Madison that represent very diverse backgrounds. Everyone has different goals, and as climbers we naturally group toward those with similar ambitions. Yes, that means cliques of different climbers form. I don't see a problem with that, so long as you're not being rude or claim to represent everyone. My issue was more that you conceive of your group of friends as the Madison climbing community, which simply isn't true. There are a lot of us.
Ooooh, so many comments, hating is going to be so much fun! Here goes:
ReplyDelete1) Sweaty: you don't love me? So strictly sexual eh?
2) Greg: I hate you simply because your comment doesn't give me any fodder to mock you.
3) Paully: `Climbing', `profession' and `peer review' in the same sentence. I am laughing and cringing.
4) Eggnuts: aren't you too old to have an iPhone? Aren't you too old to have anything that doesn't have a rotary dial?
5) KS: (I am assuming this is Katie.) This is an elitist community. No boobs allowed. However, an exception might be made if you share where you are going to procure said fainting goat from.
6) Steve: Nic is making you dinner?! WTF?! I am heartbroken that you would cheat on me so publicly and at the same time happy that your infidelity will probably be rewarded with explosive diarrhea .
7) Rhoads: I love you. We should make a baby and name him Anakin.
8) Anonymous: you may be confusing Steve being `cold/rude' with me. Although, I don't think I quite fall in the `climb >V6' clique. Definitely in the not receptive to outsiders clique though. On a slightly serious and more personal note. When I moved to moved to Madison in 2006-7, I climbed V0-V1 at best, had never really climbed outside and pretty much didn't know anything about climbing. Hefty, Houston, Kelsen, Steve, Sweaty Steve, Dobbe, Remo, Rhoads, Skinner, Vince (I am probably forgetting 50 others) were light years ahead in their progression. However, I never had any `receptivity issues'. On the contrary, I felt the community was quite nurturing. Heck, and I am not even white! Are you willing to at least entertain the thought that the `hostile environment' you perceive may have something to do with you and not the community?
Oh, and I am really curious as to who you are.
9) Eggnuts, re: your last comment above: You are a stone cold crotchety old man. I am surprised you have any friends. Who would want to be friends with a fossil?
And... I win for longest comment! Where's my free Organic schwag?
ReplyDeleteOnce again, I had this long response written and I deleted it. I just don't care anymore. I appreciate that you've put in time cleaning off ticks and picking up trash. Thanks for doing that. I think we could all do that a little more often.
ReplyDeleteThis site is 100% geared towards the group of people that pay attention week in and week out. I'm terribly sorry that you felt lumped in with that.
5 years ago I would have said so much more. I'm done.
Oh RV, you're the best.
ReplyDelete"Who would want to be friends with a fossil?"
ReplyDeleteThat is some funny shit! I miss you RV.
Anonymous, I too hope I have not been an a-hole to you or your friends. If so, just stop by Fontana Sports downtown and throw a big bro at my head:). Honestly though, stop by and we can talk shop about whatever boulders, routes, icefalls, etc. your psyched on.
I'm always blown away by the amount of climbers in this city. I meet climbers at work almost daily that I never see at Boulders or the crag, but they are out there doing what they love. Alex Lowe said, "The best climber is the one that is having the most fun." I love this cause it's true, and it doesn't matter how hard you climb or who you climb with, just as long as your having fun.
Cheers,
Remo
Yes RV, only sexual. By your build you can only assume I have a twink fetish.
ReplyDeleteAnon: not sure I agree with ya man. I live in Chicago and have always been welcomed by these scumbags. And I don't even climb anymore. I've had friends from around Illinois run into these deplorable gents and ks's without me and have been met with helpfulness and kindness.
Sweaty: Anyone can tell by taking one look at you that you are a bear. Also, since moving to Colorado I have packed on the pounds (ate too many milksteaks) so I may have to disappoint that fetish of yours.
ReplyDeleteRemo: Shut up you dirty hippy, just because they let you vote doesn't mean you have any rights or are even allowed to have an opinion.
I LOVE HEFTY! I LOVE KELSEN! I LOVE STEVE S! I LOVE STEVE D! (WHEN HE'S NOT BOWLING ON ICE) I LOVE DOBBE! I LOVE REMO!I LOVE RV! I LOVE JUSTIIN W!BIG THANKS TO VERA AS WELL!
ReplyDeleteThese people have always inspired me to climb hard when I first came to Madison and could only climb V0-negative V2. They have always put a smile on my face even though they all climb much harder than I could ever dream of because it was never about the 'Send' it was about the 'smile' of seeing a familiar face inside the gym or outside on stone- never a clique, just the same climbers day in and day out putting in their time. They have always been encouraging to my climbing and I fondly remember Hefty always putting me on probs way over my head saying -You can do it! Or when Steve S. Would yell out -Just go! When I would get bogged down on a crux move (I still hear that voice from time to time when Im stuck on a crux.) I have always been a Loner (Fact) but these people never once made me feel like an outsider, Even now as I struggle to climb v1s. My best climbing memories are still in Mad Town the place I felt the most accepted. Though this post has little to do with the topic at hand I wish you all the same happiness you have given to me. --Rick
Aw damnit! Who invited Rick to this party? I thought Asians (like women) weren't allowed an opinion. This country is going downhill. Can you block him or something Steve?
ReplyDeleteSteve, you should say what you wanna say. Post it. Anon obviously feels strongly about this and people just telling him/her it's actually their problem doesn't really address the issue.
ReplyDeleteI can tell you that people have told me the same thing. I don't think anyone is trying to be a clique or cold to new people but there's a vibe that people get that isn't as welcoming as they would like. Just yesterday at Ad Rock I was approached by a former member who was away for awhile and came back to town recently. Due to what they called the "cold" atmosphere at the gym they've decided to drive further to go to Ad Rock! This is disturbing to me, we've always had a super welcoming crowd at Boulders and now I'm hearing otherwise. I don't know why this is but I think we ALL could make more effort to befriend new climbers.
LOL you are right RV. I don't have any friends, or an iPhone. By "we" are going out bouldering Friday I mean me and my pad sherpas. That I pay to come along.
ReplyDeleteDrama, indeed. Who knew. Weird. ce
For the record, I'm not one of the previous Anonymous writers. I've been climbing in Wisco for about five years and have been disappoined with many of the encounters I've had with other local climbers. I have experienced people that have been unfriendly, rude and condecending to both myself and others in my group. At first, I thought it was just a couple of specific individuals, however, the more interactions I have with local climbers the more I realize it is an epidemic, which saddens me. Is this just my perception? From the post of a previous anonymous author I can see that it is not. Also, I have climbing friends from out of state that have corroborated my sentiments. Unfortunately, these unfriendly elitist attitudes seem to be most conspicuous at the climbing gym, a place where I hoped climbers could go to support each other in training and goals. I've had friends stop going to the gym because of how rude people were (staff too!).
ReplyDeleteI enjoy climbing and I really love the community that makes up climbers. Not all my experiences with Wisconsin climbers have been unpleasant. I have noticed that the older locals I've run into mostly on the east bluff have been very friendly and supportive. Almost all of encounters out of state have been positive with fellow climbers. Climbing provides the opportunity to meet people from all walks of life, all ages and abilities. Is there a clique? Who knows? From reading the previous posts, everyone denies it. Would you admit if you were in one? A contributer to one? Maybe, instead of deflecting blame or ignoring the comments, we, as a community, should be looking at our individual behavior. Despite my negative interactions with a number of climbers here, I am still a part of this community and when I hear the same feelings about Wisconsin climbers that I'm thinking, well, I still feel responsible for that perception and am embarrassed.
Eggnuts: You have pad sherpas?! How did you manage that? I want some pad sherpas. What are you paying them?
ReplyDeleteTrade secrets my friend. I will tell you different sherpas demand different payment methods. Nuff said. ce
ReplyDeleteRhoads - Nah. I've said what I wanted to say. I'm not looking to "address the issue". Never was honestly.
ReplyDeletePlus, I actually think that the atmosphere at Boulders is better than ever right now. It's busier than I've ever seen and the setting is phenomenal. The staff has been incredibly nice and professional and everyone I've talked to finds the atmosphere quite "warm".
RV - CE's sherpas are his kids. He just keeps popping out the little work horses.
Rick - How've you been??? I had no idea you even read this shit! Hope all is well man.
To all those anonymous posters, do you guys seriously pay attention to this site??? If so, Bravo. Takes some balls to wade through all the crap just to get to the one post about drama. Good work.
Steve - If you don't want to address the issue why did you post on your blog about it?
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying you're wrong about the atmosphere at Boulders but what I'm telling you is that I've heard otherwise from MANY people and just ignoring criticism doesn't help. I am also not accusing you or you/Katie of creating this problem, it existed when I worked there too.
I think you're the kinda guy who cares about this sort of thing and I don't think you are purposely excluding anyone so all I ask is that you, others at Boulders, and others in Wisconsin just recognize that some people are turned off right now. Then all you have to do is make a personal effort to make sure people don't feel this way.
Telling them it's all in their head is bullshit.
Hey Rhoads. On my phone so a shorty here. I never brought up the general atmosphere issues, anonymous did. I wanted to get people to stop posting/saying/doing things solely for the goal of pissing someone else off cause they don't like them. What sucks is that was happening both in and out of climbing. Too much drama. I gotta go do some work.
ReplyDeleteSteve S
How do you know there is a "them" nick? So far it is just you and anonymous spineless whiners.
ReplyDeleteKatie! I want to play with the fainting goat and Finley desperately needs another puppy friend . . . I'll help you pick new puppy out! Just make sure it has a better hair cut than Moose : )
ReplyDeleteSarah
Look, you've got two people on this blog that say there's an attitude problem plus people who have spoken to me about it AND all those out there who don't post. There IS a problem here.
ReplyDelete"Spineless whiners"? Yea, when someone criticizes you just insult them. Now that's community!
I post to start debate and with this blog as an example I'm obviously pretty good at it. I admit there's alot of negative that happens with that but there's some positive too. Here in this debate the fact that some people feel alienated by the community has surfaced. This issue has been overlooked for a long time and maybe now is the time to talk about it.
So instead of getting defensive and writing it off how about talking about fixing the problem. Even if there are only two people who feel this way I think it's worth taking the time and effort to welcome them.
Anons, my email is rhoadsclimbs@gmail.com I will climb with anyone almost anytime and I will show you any area or routes you are interested in.
Katie! This one!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.giveshelter.org/component/animaldetail/?id=14124529
Scully
Ladies, you can NOT encourage her!! Not cool.
ReplyDeleteI want him!!! Awesome name . . .although I think Remo should look into adopting him : ) Remus Remus=awesome!
ReplyDeleteSarah
Although we are both cute and share a name, there is no relation and he is not my child. Poor guy is described as a "sweet little lady"- he is totally going to have issues.
ReplyDeleteRemo:)
I honestly doubt its a problem with Boulders, but more a problem with Climbing Gyms in general. I definitely didn't feel "welcome" at Adventure Rock when I first started climbing. I've always thought the stronger climbers look down on the weaker climbers and there is a bit of cliqueness when it comes to how hard you can climb. Especially in the bouldering rooms.
ReplyDeleteHowever I don't feel like this attitude was brought to the outdoors and pretty much everyone I have met outside at the Dodge or DL has been welcoming and fun to hang out with.
http://www.giveshelter.org/component/animaldetail/?id=14271813
ReplyDeleteHELL YES KATIE FOR SENDING ALPINE CLUB!!
ReplyDeleteYeah, great job Katie! Crushing!
ReplyDeleteRemo
FFA? I think so! Somebody better be making a huge cake for Katie!
ReplyDeleteRick-
Not an FFA.. Kelly beat her by 1 season. Still a very sick thing... this is a hard boulder IMO and I would be the last one to downrate this thing. good work katie on a hard v9.
ReplyDelete-nic
Does this mean I have to climb harder to stay in the click?
ReplyDeleteShit
Nice work hot pants. Tonight we will dine like kings. Tomorrow maybe I'll send too.
Scully
Nic said something nice. ugh. now I can't hate him as much. well.....
ReplyDelete"7 - Alpine Club will be done 1 time.
ONLY IF KELLY REPEATS
8 - Venus Rising will be done 1 time.
NOPE
9 - A lady will finally put up a problem harder than V4
NOPE"
Sam as long as you keep drinking whiskey you are in. when are you going out tomorrow? You need to do fat pants!!!!!! I have sickness but might be in. or maybe I can say I am climbing and go get Lucy. I love her.
http://www.giveshelter.org/component/animaldetail/?id=14271813
http://www.giveshelter.org/component/animaldetail/?id=14481400
ReplyDeleteWouldn't she be the best playmate for Finley?
love!!!!
ReplyDeleteand by click I mean Clique
ReplyDeleteThanks Peener
Also, I want this one
http://www.giveshelter.org/component/animaldetail/?id=14087720